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Rules Base protection

Discussion in 'Project Reality' started by filamu, Jan 22, 2019.

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    filamu

    filamu PR:BF2 Lead Administrator People Revolutionary Front

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    [​IMG]

    These are our current rules on base protection. There have been some discussions about them and some issues on certain maps due to rules. A post on our feedback thread made by [R-DEV]Outlawz
    For us as admins and they do give us a very clearly defined line for what is okay and not, but there are some maps that use DODs in a way that make our rule not work as intended. F.ex the sea assault maps that have DODs that cover the entire ocean.

    My initial thought are to remove 5.3.3, and make in on 5.3.1 into:
    It is a little more vague unfortunately, but it should give some protection against f.ex tanks shooting right outside the entrances.

    There needs to be some sort of protection on the ways out of main. Would this change to 5.3.1 be enough?
    Should we add a "Do not camp the enemy main" as a rule too?
    Or do we do as Outlawz suggested? Issue with that would be things like intention to fire. Would we punish the aa shooting the cas in dod if the cas is clearly going on an attack run?


    Or do you have any other suggestions to this set of the rules? I'd like to hear them all.
    That said, I expect everyone to write constructive posts and stay on topic. No off topic or personal attacks.
     
    agus92, Dragon7722, Carti and 2 others like this.
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    Suchar

    Suchar The Most Honorable Lead Mapper Operations PR:BF2 Senior Administrator Mapper Jednostka Wojskowa Komandosów

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    We had a rule that prohibited attacking any choke points leading out of main. In my opinion it was really good and I have no idea why the rule was removed. We should add it back as well.
    In general, I feel like we should investigate every single accident separately. There is no way we can make a few rules that will cover all possible cases, but we have to generalize - otherwise rules will not be understandable. Making rules for every single map (a few people suggested that) simply will not work.
    I agree with your suggestion and I think it is a step in the right direction.

    It's the same as not playing on the objectives.
     
    Rooky_Ghost and agus92 like this.
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    Daniel

    Daniel Mapper Guest Unit - THOT

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    DOD rules stupid you should be able to fire in/out of dod (not mainbase)

    edit: i dumb and ignore this
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
    supercas240 likes this.
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    VTRaptor

    VTRaptor (⌐ ͡■ ͜ʖ ͡■) Jednostka Wojskowa Komandosów

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    Base protection is a complicated thing, but what you're proposing is the best option. Let the DEVs design the maps (not just the DoD) so that baserape options will be reduced.

    "do not fire at DoD unless fired upon" Would still cause same problems with people shooting enemies inside DoD. The edge of it is invisible and even if it was marked on the map, it'd still miss the point because "DoD is intended to disallow one team from being in a certain area not to stop incoming or outgoing projectiles."

    I was thinking of making suggestion on realitymod about moving main bases outside the map, so that teams get way more space and with extensive DoD it would be extremely hard to baserape. Camping ways in and out would still be possible, but would be much harder to and there could be more ways in/out. I don't know if that is possible but looking at falklands it seems that it is. It'd be at the cost of aesthetics because outside the map things look like shit, but main base is intended to be spawn point and be out of combat.
    Not all maps need that though.
     
    Rooky_Ghost and Carti like this.
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    CAS_ual_TY

    CAS_ual_TY Events PR:BF2 Administrator IRL Task Force Media Team AREA 94 Global Security Initiative

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    Choke Points are Map Design.
    Can we please stop becoming PRTA 2016 again?
    Otherwise Ill have to make ridiculous posts again to show why a "safe choke point" rule doesnt work.
    For those who dont know: At that time you would get banned for mining bridges on Beirut (!).

    https://prteamwork.com/threads/camping-choke-points.26507/#post-251707
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 22, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 22, 2019 ---
    About the rules:

    Problems are stated clearly. But Mr Developer is wrong. Look at Jabal as an example, MEC main. If DOD would only be a no go zone in all cases (instead of a no-shoot zone), then you could shoot into the main base from the hills only 100m (!) south of it.

    Same goes for Qwai and other examples (we had that already)

    The current rule set gives the admin a free pass in these cases where DOD is involved but clear main bases are not. "It's immediate surroundings" is also kinda vague, so you could see it as a free pass as well.

    But I agree that it would be good to find a good wording to fix this issue.
     
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    fecht_niko

    fecht_niko POV Leader IRL Task Force Foxtrot

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    Rules should be clear for everyone and not some vague points where you have to check each case.
    Obv DoD protection rules will always be tricky and wont solve all problems.

    The only half reasonable rule that can be enforced imo would be:

    -Attacking any choke points leading out of main or firing at DoD unless fired upon is prohibited.
     
    agus92 likes this.
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    WeedT0aster

    WeedT0aster The APC is pounding the FOB Senior Tester PR:BF2 Administrator Guest Unit - THOT

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    Pronck

    Pronck Admiral General Pronk PRTA

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    You can define DoD easily, however chokepoints is more difficult. Op. Archer has some chokepoints when you drive out of the mainbase....but if you use a few more IQ points they are easily avoided. But what about Korengal? If you cannot ambush chokepoints...there is no reason to play the map at all.

    DoD rule = fine
    Chokepoints rule = for pussies. Fight your way out.
     
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    TabZa

    TabZa pro rager Salt

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    Firing out of DOD should be OK. Firing out of main base structures should not be OK.
    Firing into DOD should be OK when fired upon. Firing into main base structures should not be OK.

    Chokepoints don't need any restricting, unless they are the only way out of the main base.
     
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    fecht_niko

    fecht_niko POV Leader IRL Task Force Foxtrot

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    The problem with chokepoints exists on some maps (like muttrah, beirut, fools, ) where you only have 1-2 exits.
    No skill to camp those with mines/AT
     
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    agus92

    agus92 Resident Moderator PR:BF2 Seeder 9ª Compañía de Infantería

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    I would take into account the space available in front of a chokepoint when deciding if its campable or not. For example, getting out of muttrah docks has 3 chokepoints, but apcs can engage from afar safely the spots most that cover them. Sure, the corner still needs to be checked by inf or using smoke, but apc has enough odds in it's favour that the chokepoint rule shouldn't be enforced.

    I'd restrict chokepoint rule to maps like sbeneh or op falcon.
     
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    fecht_niko

    fecht_niko POV Leader IRL Task Force Foxtrot

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    Im not talking about Docks on muttrah because you have several options to leave main.
    MEC has only 2 exits on Muttrah that are easy to camp.

    The best solution would be to increase DoD on such maps but thats something DEVs have to do and will take 100 years
     
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    agus92

    agus92 Resident Moderator PR:BF2 Seeder 9ª Compañía de Infantería

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    Agreed.

    On the other hand, this misunderstanding highlights the need of being specific about defining a regulated chokepoint.
     
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    fecht_niko

    fecht_niko POV Leader IRL Task Force Foxtrot

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    Only 1-2 Mainbase exits = Chokepoint
     
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    filamu

    filamu PR:BF2 Lead Administrator People Revolutionary Front

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    I think we can't have any rules about chokepoints tbh, it is too much to define. And they are mostly not even covered by todays rules.

    Is this wording acceptable? Does it need to be more precise, if so how?

    Due to the nature of how some dods are, I am thinking that even shooting into dod has to be allowed. If not, you cant use armor to pick of a pesky sniper f.ex.
     
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    Carti

    Carti PR:BF2 Administrator AREA 94

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    It shouldn't be allowed, I would rephrase that. The rules should say something like if it isn't close to the spawn it isn't punished.
     
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    Woxbel

    Woxbel

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    You can't have words like close in rules for the simple fact those words are debatable so lead to misunderstanding and endless debates. I guess you could define close as a certain amount of grids but that is just as arbitrary as the current dod is.

    To me the rule works and removing it will make things endlessly complicated and easily exploitable. This to me mainly seems like an asset problem while removing it will have a big impact on infantry.

    To me we could change it so CAS can shoot CAS in dod up to a certain amount of grids away from the spawn location or whatever anyone thinks works.

    Getting transported onto the island on Saaremaa f.ex can already be a big enough risk as it is if the trans choppers also can get shot on their way from the carrier to the shore I definitely won’t get any chopper rides anymore.

    Extending something like that To Tanks and APCs I could see work as well I guess where people can shoot at and get shot by APC and Tanks in dod. Although I am even more hesitant to consider that.

    As far as I know these examples that cause debate are never a trans chopper/truck getting shot in dod because than it is a clear case.

    I am no expert in the asset rules since I never play them but I could have sworn there are things in there about not exploiting it like dipping in and out of it. But also about it being okay to finish the engagement if it started outside of dod.

    In general I am in favor of keeping the current dod rules as they are although I will admit that me saying that is based on a heavy infantry bias don’t know if I would feel differently if I did assets.
     
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    VTRaptor

    VTRaptor (⌐ ͡■ ͜ʖ ͡■) Jednostka Wojskowa Komandosów

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    The rule works for you since it doesn't affect you, all good then, eh?

    Stopping choppers from comming into the island is not as easy as it might seem, as if you wanted to do that - you'd have to get AA in at least two positions on shores, so it'd require alot of hassle. Even so, the helicopter would be visible for very short span of time while it would be heading towards repair station, so guys with AA would have to stay focused all the time. I have never seen people doing it, even when the rules allowed that. If you recognize it as a problem, map specific rules can be added.

    What I was proposing many months back was allowing to engage anything in DoD while the last capturable flag is in play. It could be a solution to many problems and would leave space for other possible rules regulating that matter.

    Rules need a good wording and/or adequate set of punishments. Banning someone even for 3 days(and there were 5 and 7 day bans) for killing something in or from DoD is ridicilous.
     
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    filamu

    filamu PR:BF2 Lead Administrator People Revolutionary Front

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    Now this is a good suggestion. We could add that as an exception to 5.3.3.
    Only issue with this one is maps like Pavlosk where the DOD is giant. Which would require something else.

    Only a few of our punishments are there to remove someone from the server, most are there to ensure that people follow the rules.
    How to you give someone a warning when they dont play every day? Start searching all messager services for them?
    Most of these bans where removed when the player appealed, but honestly this is off topic for this thread. Feel free to make a new post about punishments.
     
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    Woxbel

    Woxbel

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    I didn't say it is all good I think it is the best suggested solution so far you are welcome to disagree though. The proposed solutions break the game to a bigger extent in my mind while these are edge cases if I have to judge by the reports frequency. That is not to minimize them but if the solution is worse than I will choose the best option.

    I also suggested an alternative solution where you can shoot vehicles that could engage you but not trans choppers and trans trucks for example. But I still prefer the current ruleset.

    They do affect me the current rules cause drama causes teams to lose vital assets that can ruin the round but all of this only occasionally. Where I think it would regularly ruin rounds especially when the teams are already unbalanced with the other solutions.

    Although I don’t mind your solution totally except for the fact that there is a very real chance of a deseed if the bleed isn’t fast enough. It also doesn’t solve most of the recent cases or even apply to them. Didn’t exactly keep track of all of them perfectly but most of them where not when one team was fighting for the last flag. It would also need to include being allowed to fire out of it in these casses.
     

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