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Feedback PRTA Server Rules Update Discussion

Discussion in 'Discussion' started by Chav, Sep 19, 2017.

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    Temur Temur Lean Mean Admin Machine

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    VTRaptor

    I would reject that MECH INF is a waste of assets, despite the effort put into your cartoon there.

    MECH INF tends only to be done by competent people, and can be massively effective. It ensures that assets are properly used in coordination with infantry, on objectives, rather than having all assets just go to a corner of the map and fight it out. It's one of the best things about our ruleset. I would hate to see it go.

    It's difficult to do, sure, but only compared to having all your assets hide on a hill far away from an objective and farm kills. Which is both boring and unrealistic. We should encourage coordination and teamwork, and MECH INF does that.
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    This is where you're wrong. Mech inf squads are made mostly to get immersed with how realistic and tactical game is or whatnot. The truth is, that assets playing on the objectives die alot, like... Do you really think that bunch of milsims will make it fine right on top of the objective and will cover their asset properly? Hell. Even if you had some of thie finest PR players, they most likely would fail to save their APC/IFV from getting killed by random AT out of nowhere.

    And don't say that it's unrealistic as in real life vehicles avoid fighting in places like cities for obvious reasons. They peek from a distance and eventually go in when they know, that every flank is covered. So that's what they do in PR - farm kills from far away.

    I'm not suggesting removal of the rule itself, but changing it to something like: Mech inf claims any apc/ifv they want if they are first to make squad (before apc squad is created), but if they're late, APC squad can give them leftovers.
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    just to add my idea, MECHINF is needed, cuz ive had amazing games running mechinf squads, one game on Bijar Canyons i was able, with my squad to not take any casualties all game, cap 3 flags, take out 2 FOB's, and have time to drive over a mine on the way back to main and survive to tell the tale. That was my best game, i had fun, we kept moving, making the battlefield move to us, would have been nice to be in IFV, so we could take on tanks, i found out later that we almost got pounced by 3 tanks, but still won the game with over 10,000 points made by the squad with 35 kills to boast.

    I think MECHINF is worth everything, and if used right, it can be the best time you have in PR, with the combo of driving big gun'd machines, with inf combat, its totally worth it. especially if you have a trained apc crew and a good inf group to boot, we need a mechinf rule to promote this type of gameplay in my mind.

    And remember, PRTA was never about being the same as everyone else, we where different to give that player base choice, true that is no longer able to do, but promoting the best type of gameplay instead of letting people run around as freekit squads, wouldn't be good for seiver heath in my opinion
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    Heskey Heskey Den Mother

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    I'm inclined to agree (may already have done) that the IFVs shouldn't be used by Mech Inf. They have a key offensive capability that is restricted whilst in company with infantry. There are 3 main reasons for 'mechanised' infantry:
    1. Mobility
    2. Armoured Protection
    3. Fire Support (anything above small arms fire is fire support)
    I think APCs more than adequately fill this role.

    Now a lot of people keep talking about 'first squad created' in a claim order, but there's no way to tell. If 9 Squads get created at game-start, "APC" is the 7th Squad, the 6th Squad disbands and someone makes a "Mech Inf" Squad, screaming for the APC... Well that new Squad appears before "APC" in the Squad list - so who created a squad first isn't always apparent.

    I'm going to be a bit radical here, and suggest how about APCs can't be "claimed" unless already clearly in use by a Squad? This allows for an element of dynamism on the field. If an Infantry squad spawns in and an APC is available, cool - you can add some fire support to your Squad for a bit. If you lose it, you didn't create your Squad with the expressed intention of relying on a vehicle. I'm 50/50 on whether to 'confused' things by adding a note that states APCs must be used for their intended purpose, i.e. carrying personnel, and not 2-man light-tanking up in the hills.

    ---

    Second point I want to make is yes, rules shouldn't be guidelines, but they also shouldn't read like a law statute, with a million sub-paragraphs and clauses that people will hold you to the letter of when they or their friends get kicked/banned. Over the past few years we've seen people go full-on Boston Legal over ban appeals and it's ridiculous. Admins should be afforded some freedom to interpret the rules in whatever way is best suited for the situation at hand, for the benefit and enjoyment for the majority of players on the server whilst also ensuring that judgement calls aren't so wildly different that people would have grounds to complain about being treated very differently to others.

    ---

    Last point, I'm quite happy to offer my proof-reading/editorial services for the final draft(s) of the rules before they're published, whenever that might be - but take your time with them. Community input is important!
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    This affect other asset-claim rules. Normally when someone does it, gets shouted at on mumble/teamchat and it's enough. But if this doesn't work, then you can always proove it easilly after the game using battle tracker, where you can see who and when created what squad, and lying to an admin is quite offence.
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    Heskey Heskey Den Mother

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    Do we really want admins spending time trawling battle tracker post-match to find out "who was first"? Sounds very juvenile, to me.
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    No. This situation should be reported by the player/s loosing his/theirs squad. And checking battle tracker takes 1 minute.

    But as i said - getting shouted at is enough in most cases. At the beggining people are trying to make their squads to claim assets, so everyone watches the same menu and see it, and if it happens mid game then people can recall who had said asset squad.

    Do i really have to go trough PR basics here?
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    Temur Temur Lean Mean Admin Machine

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    VTRaptor We'll have to agree to disagree about MECH INF. I agree with ArkUTD, and Heskey is right to say that having MECH INF be contingent on who makes the squad first would make matters a bit ridiculous.

    Heskey - having APCs be unclaimable is interesting, would like to see a discussion opened on that. Although I do think that, for the most part, we should try and be consistent with other communities in PR. God knows how getting rid of APC squads would go down. Would like to investigate that though, perhaps you could make a suggestion thread?

    --

    Chav We need to work out how exactly we're gong to process a change to the ruleset. There are a number of different ways to do it, each with advantages/disadvantages.

    We could go through, rule by rule, and have a discussion and vote for each one, eventually producing a ruleset which is democratically legitimised. But that would take some time, and it risks the rulset not having a clear and coherent structure behind it.

    We could offer 3 or 4 different rulesets, and have the community list order of preference, with discussion on specifics too. One of the options, of course, would be the ruleset as it currently is. This would probably be quicker and easier, although it restricts how much we can change and might leave a number of people disliking every option.

    Or we could just make a new ruleset proposal and have people critique it, offer input and ideas over a period of time and then eventually hold a vote on whether to implement it or to start from scratch. I would support this option, but we would have to ensure the ur-ruleset / starting point is a good one. I think my drafts are a little way off, especially when people continue offering good ideas for changes.

    Does anyone have any other ideas about how we could move this forward? Heskey looking for some experience here.

    Temur

    P.S. Have promoted thread.
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
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    Heskey Heskey Den Mother

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    All I'm thinking re APCs is to view them as armoured trucks. Squads can use them for Mech Inf / transport if they're available, and if they're not then they're getting sore legs - just like trucks themselves.

    If you're not pressed for time, then I think the community consultation should take place in 2 stages:
    1. Individual discussion threads per rule group, e.g. squad names & claiming rights, base rape, flag rushing, mech inf, APC - each eventually culminating in a majority consensus once discussion dies down
    2. Presentation of proposed ruleset, which is an amalgamation of the outcomes of the individual discussion threads - the purpose of this thread is to:
      1. Check that there are no conflicts/contradictions between different rules that have been brought together
      2. Allow for final representations/objections to be made
      3. Seek community approval after undertaking any final edits that arise in point 2 above.
    I think it's clear that this thread will go on and on and on as people take multiple posts to discuss-to-the-death a couple of rules out of a dozen or so.
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    Temur Temur Lean Mean Admin Machine

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    Agreed. I think that would make more sense than this 'megathread' of circular debate. Will wait for Chav's input - there are some other factors going on.
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
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    Natuk Natuk Housework can't kill you, but why take a chance?

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    nice rules dud
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    fecht_niko fecht_niko POV Leader

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    APCs/IFVs have to be claimble.
    Russian Reality doesnt have such a rule which makes gameplay a mess.
    Everyone starts running to get an APC at round start and you dont know who is doing INF, MechINF or freekits + APC.
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    The rules must be honest, just, reasonable, and according to the ways of the players. It must meet their needs, and speak plainly so that all may know and understand what the rule is. It is not to be made in any player's favor, but for the needs of all them who play on the server. No player shall condemn the rule which the admin has given and the leadership chosen; neither shall the admin take it back without the will of the players.
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    One thing you should make sure to add is that the SL can't man the apc in a mech inf squad. Especially if you give mech inf priority over apcs.
    If not you could be mechinf SL just to claim the apc, and also the infantry part will do quite badly as they wont have a directly involved SL nor will they build fobs or place markers. It will be a free kit squad with an apc, nearly guaranteed.
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    Just shooting my two cents out as honestly as I can.

    I don't like any set of rules that forces down some pseudo realism by restricting mechanics. PR in of itself has done way too much of this and it's one of the reasons I don't play the game anymore as much as I used to. Especially considering my fluid playstyle I object to any set of rules imposed on the actual bloody Squad Leader concerning kits. If there's anyone who knows what kit he needs and his squad needs at that time it's him and not you.


    Armour squad is alright in a sense. At the same time there are often too many assets and then it just gets bogged down in technicalities.
    Im in favour of an overlapping system where APC squad has access to all APCs and IFVs but where a Mech Inf squad also can take one of the weaker ones. Most of all I'd like to see the APC squad actually communicate with inf squads and ferry people but we all know this never happens on pub servers. Im fine either way here, it's a balance and I dont mind different servers having a different approach.
    Adds flavour.


    No Flag Rushing rules at all. Im even in favour of things like baserape and used to have the most fun when attacking main US bases as insurgents using bomb cars in the past or defending a carrier against CAS Air using the AA gun. But im a huge minority here. Removing or disallowing flagrushing sadly also leads to a bunch of arbitrary decisions on where the limit should be , how far away or how close to a flag a fob must be/is not allowed to be. How long or how far away can a squad be.

    Anything that breaks the linearity of a game is good IMO.


    edit
    Huh? Have you even watched some of the US battles in Fallujah and Baghdad or Russia in Chechnya or the Ukraine war or the Syrian war?
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
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    Arnoldio Arnoldio Noot noot!

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    Ayy sounds like a k/d guy.



    Brb healing cancer.

    I agree on the flag rushing that it makes there gray areas... however it is really stupid to see teams to go directly to the other side of the map. Whats the point of the aas system then.
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    APC as transport would work if there wasn't that one lat in the bush behind the APC everytime it stops. irl APC transport works because infantry is more or less organized and thus there won't be any solo rambo soldiers going on rampages. But it's a game, it's meant to be fun so fuck being organized. Also it's faster and safer to move on foot lol.


    In real combat everyone on the field tends to be doing what they are told to do, more or less. That's why irl you can have APC and even tanks in urban areas, but only when you have an inf sqd covering the vehicle.
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    I like the Command and Control mode and would prefer it if at least your hardcore events were played using that one. I'm not a fan of the AAS mode at all but if anything it concentrates action a bit since there's too few people for these big maps in a sense. Not really a K/D guy though, unless I'm playing a sniper. I tend to have a pretty shitty K/D since im busy trying to co ordinate the team when im a SL.
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    Yes. Look.
    [​IMG]
    That's alot of vehicles for one city.

    I'm not even going to comment other examples XD
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    Oh I know, but that doesn't mean that they do not use it. Other armies suffer less casualties.

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