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Feedback PRTA Server Rules Update Discussion

Discussion in 'Discussion' started by Chav, Sep 19, 2017.

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    Manager PR:BF2 Head PR:BF2 Temp. Lead Administrator Lead Moderator Senior Tester Member Ten Good Men

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    Hello everyone,

    I have had the intention to change the server rules since the start, however it's a behemoth of a task to do on my own. I recognise that the rules are way too over complicated and allow for people abuse them and they are really along the lines with the rest of the community.

    I would like to invite everyone into a discussion about the rules and what should be implemented and what should be thrown out.

    Obvious rules such as cheating, baserape, asset stealing and kit stealing don't really need to be discussed as they are will be in regardless.

    Rules that I am interested in are:
    • Squadleader requiring officer kits (Where the intention of the rule is good I do not think it's the right way around it).
    • Asset claiming rules; including mechinf and our beloved armour rule...
    • Flag rushing rule
    And anything else that I can't think of at the moment.

    Thanks everyone, I hope that the new ruleset will hopefully be implemented 2 weeks from now, if the conversation is healthy.

    Find our rules here.


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    Wicca Wicca Project Founder

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    Good intiative Chav! :smile:
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    fecht_niko fecht_niko POV Leader

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    Squadleader requiring officer kits to avoid free kits squads was the intention so just put: no free kits squad allowed
    Asset claiming rules: TANK, APC, MECHINF (can claim 1 APC)
    Flag rushing rule: Dont rush 1. flag if it isnt an attack flag.

    Basically try to have a similiar rule set other communities use. Makes it easier for everyone
    exel82, Chav, mectus11 and 1 other person like this.
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    deviro deviro Provides coverage of the Battlefield

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    I feel like we should steamline the rules. People are always confused about our obscure rules that don't add much to the experience. Squadleaders required to have the kit is just unnececary - it doesn't account for context. Armour instead of Tank seems like a leftover phragment from even older rules we had.
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    PR:BF2 Resident Administrator Ten Good Men

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    Agree with the previous two posts about Squad leaders needing officers kits, obviously it has its many uses, but aside from the obvious, a large amount of players don't know to mark enemy assets etc with their squad leader kit, and even if they do know how to, it is much easier just to tell other squad leaders directly. It is an unneeded rule as long as it doesn't result in squads being free kit squads.
    Armour/Armor is a silly debate and shouldn't matter whatsoever, one is just an Anglican spelling and one is an Americanized spelling, it makes no difference.
    In regards to squad naming, I honestly don't care if a squad is named within reason to claim the assets e.g. the common 'cas sex' 'trans sexual' etc etc, the joke isn't funny anymore but if people want to attempt to keep beating the same drum with the boring joke let them, it doesn't affect game play whatsoever and it is easily identifiable as the asset squad.

    One thing that I would like clearing up is the mech inf rule, it confuses me every time and I have to check the rules each time mech inf comes into play because either I'm just being stupid, or I read it and it doesn't sink in each time.

    Ideally though, each infantry squad would be 'Mech inf' and have their own personal armoured personnel carrier to use to support themselves with greater firepower. Making for less of the APC vs APC battles on the edges of the map and also meaning they are less likely to be wasted due to not being the squad with first dibs on the next APC to respawn, as the APC squads currently have no real incentive to protect their APCs as more often than not the max time they will have to wait is 10 minutes for a new APC.
    If it was changed to this role, each squad typically being a mech inf squad, the potential is there to have a 30 minute wait for an APC if your squad loses their APC and the others are all taken by other mech inf squads, thus the impact on the game of losing one and wasting them.
    Just my thoughts. Probably have more when I think about them properly at some point.
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    deviro deviro Provides coverage of the Battlefield

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    Terry talking about the APC squad reminded me: can we give back the IFVs to APC? I understand why they are given to tank (because they can kill actual armour and them rolling together with armour is probably a good idea), but it's just confusing and creates drama every day. I think it would've been nice if the PR community as a whole adopted our rule of giving IFV to tank squads, but nobody cares and it creates unnecesary friction between players.
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    Member Ten Good Men

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    - squad leader kit rule is good and helps teamwork amd realism.
    - armour claims tanks and bmps ( these are both anti vehicle classes and should be commanded in a single squad for optimal use.)
    - mech inf claims first apc and apc squad can take leftovers.
    - don't rush first cappable flag. Simple rule that works.
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    1. Tank/armour claims tank and anti-tank vehicles.
    2. CAS claims CAS assets and AA-vehicles, maybe even spotter kit because sometimes some noob in main has taken spotter and refuses to give it to you.
    3. APC claims IFV and APCs, this way ideally the good assets are always in use as tank/armour sqd would keep IFVs as backup.
    4. Mechinf claims one apc, first come first serve rule applies. APC sqd should be left with one APC if there are multiple mechinf sqds.
    5. 10 minutes until you can attack first flag/it's in cap order.
    6. Infantry SL doesn't need to have a officer kit, this way small inf sqds can get the most firepower if they're doing milsim flanking maneuvers behind enemy lines.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
    FakeFrost, mectus11, VTRaptor and 4 others like this.
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    Heskey Heskey Den Mother

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    Keep it simple. Where possible, be consistent with the rest of the PR community so it's not such a ball-ache to know different rules for different servers that you're 'forced' to play on at different times of the day just because that's how the population works.

    Keep it minimal. DEVs have designed PR mechanics in such a way to prevent abuse of certain things, so a lot of 'house' rules should be discarded - if DEVs didn't want something to work a certain way, they'd engineer a mechanic (where possible) to prevent it.

    Over-arching 'ideals' of mine are open for debate from players who know more than me, but:

    1.) I'd like to see Inf having greater availability of mobility and this generally being more respected in the game. I think rules people suggest around 'APC' squads being secondary to Mech Inf squads are good. I also think there are many 'pros' to having the SL as the driver, so don't have a "SL must have Officer kit" rule, especially when the real reason for that was to say "No free kit squads" as mentioned above - so just say that instead.

    2.) I've never really bought into the argument about not rushing - I think flag-cap denial is a legitimate strategy, and it's fair because both sides can do it. Okay, a flag might not 'be in play', but it will be if you can stave off the enemy advance long enough for your team to back-cap up to it. One of the best, most memorable games I had in PR was on Qwai River as the Chinese back in like, 0.5. We spawned at Construction Site (NW), jumped in the troop transport and rushed across the northern river crossing. We holed up in Mine (NE - US' 2nd cap I think), and repaired the doors shut. We faced one hell of a battle holding off multiple breaches without re-arm support whilst the rest of our team capitalised on the US being unable to advance on the battlefield.
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    BubblyNinja BubblyNinja 乇乂ㄒ尺卂 ㄒ卄丨匚匚

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    I think the flag rushing rules were mainly put in place for maps such as Muttrah, Pavlosk Bay, and especially Jabal al Burj. Yes flag rushing is a good strategy but if let's say USMC cant even get onto the beach on Jabal because there is a tow and AA on East Beach flag in the first 5 minutes, completely denying the US team to even "play". In turn players will just stay on the carrier shooting at each other because they're tired of dying on their way to their first flag or just straight up leave the server because they are getting steam rolled. A lot of the time it's not because the US is shit it's because they don't have any room to do anything at all.

    Any other map however I feel like the rule should be void to an extent.
    Danielj15 likes this.
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    Arnoldio Arnoldio Noot noot!

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    IFV CLAIMABLE BY MECHINF ABOVE ARMOUR AND EVERYTHING ELSE.
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    The main things you should look at is Mech Inf, Main Base & DoD, Flag Rushing and Vehicle Claiming In General.

    And before we start lets just agree on this: Making rules depending on Map, Layout and Asset Layout (different rules depending on what assets are on the map) is always bad. There should be 1 rule set which always applies.

    1. Mech Inf is a difficult topic. The question is: Should the Vehicle give the squad some protected transportation possibilities with some smaller firepower, or should the vehicle be used as heavy firepower.

    Giving Mech Inf the ability to choose the APC is already bad. This can be abused too much. Especially if you remove the "armour" role (which I hope you do), then Asset Whores will always go for Mech Inf, get that IFV and get 4 more people to lonewolf so that the claim requirements are met.

    If you give the APC squad the ability to choose which vehicle the Mech Inf squad gets, then that said squad might end up with a shitbox, as well. Which can be bad in terms of firepower, but ensures that the APC squad does not start with a disadvantage against the enemy APCs. Lets just look at Nuijama AAS STD, FR side. Mech Inf could just choose a VBCI. This would mean that those 2 VBCIs will be split, instead of working together. The BTR-80As would just pick them off 1 by 1 and then rape the french side.

    Another possibility, making the Mech Inf squad choose the APC only, if they made the squad before APC. But this does not really remove the problems I talked about, it rather randomizes them.

    2. Firing out of main, but not into it? Baserape allowed? Only return fire? No firing at all? Is DoD = Main Base? Tough one. All can be abused somehow. Just some examples:
    - Only firing out of main, but not into it, can be abused on Korengal and a little bit on Jabal. But thats kinda it. I still believe its the best rule, but people will complain about not being able to fire back without considering simply not peeking their main base. But we all know how retarded most players are. Some have, however, acknowledged that rule to be the best possibility.
    - Baserape allowed does not necessarily have to be the worst rule. It can end rounds faster when it is over already, anyways. Just take a look at the old silent eagle as an example. This could represent the rule, that you are only allowed to baserape, once you have outcapped the enemy. But this map also represents these problems: People already baseraping before that happened; People not stopping once the last flag has been re-taken again.
    - Only return fire is also an interesting concept, but people are too dumb. Jabal is the best example. US being on the hill south of the MEC main base and you have someone on the quad gun firing at that hill. Suddenly the entire US team starts firing at their main with the argument that "MEC started it". Chat almost always becomes a shitshow once this rule has to be enforced.
    - No firing at all is also an interesting concept. But do you really expect 2 opposed tanks not to fire when both see each other and one is driving out of main?
    - And finally: What actually is the main base? The compound? The DOD? Take a look at the DODs of Pavlovsk, Hades, Sbeneh (MEC) and Marlin (FR). Now how do you define "main base" for every single one of these maps with a single rule?

    3. Flag Rushing
    Define "rush". After 10 minutes? Only after it has been capped? What if it hasnt been capped after 30 minutes? What when you can spawn there? What when you can parachute there? What when there is only 2 neutral flags? Do I rush if I go inside the cap radius or when I attack people that are inside? Well, everything said here. Just find a clear definition.

    4. I dislike "Armour". It has been said already and I will say it again: You do not care about keeping your assets alive if you have another one waiting in main base. I have experienced this every single time in "Armour" if something is there as back up. Also, instead of RTB'ing you just die because tis faster. I hate this rule.
    But you should also consider who claims AAV, ATV, Recon vehicles (BRDM-2 and VN-3) and 1-crewman-APCs (VAB, Boragh...), while making them non-claimable is also an option. There arent really many disadvantages in making any of these claimable (except for shitboxes, they often just lay around, unused then) except for the fact that in some cases some crewmen, who are very capable of manning these vehicles in a for the team favorable way, will then not be able to take them.

    5. Oh yeah and please remove this INF SL Officer Kit rule. It has been abused in the past and it will be again. In general try to give admins minimum power when it comes to and interpretation of the rules
    Temur, VTRaptor, cassius23 and 2 others like this.
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    Yes, let's have one of the most mobile platforms that can kill a tank(most of the IFVs) be turned into a defensive weapon that's going to be used as carefully as possible. Sounds reasonable right? NO. Or then it's just this same scenario as in Casualty's post.
    Mechinf doesn't need IFVs with heavy armament. Most mechinf sqds would be better off with light APCs because mechinfs usually just use their APC defensively, thus a 50. and 7.62 armament will suffice. Mechinf doesn't need ATGMs, grenade launchers or 100 mm HEFRAG to defend themselves.
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    Agree with all of these.

    And here comes the suggestion, to allow baserape once the team has lost all its flags. Perfect example is Qwai, where Temple is last CH flag. After loosing said flag to US side, you can't stop people from baseraping. It's simply impossible. Also stopping baserape in that case would be stupid, because why would one keep the game boring for the rest of the time that's left? The rule would also apply pretty well to:
    - Muttrah City (MEC main clearly visible from last flag),
    - Assault on Mestia (fighting over Militia main, that's been designed to be defended),
    - Beirut (IDF main clearly visible from last flag)
    - Fools Road (Both mains clearly visible from last flag)
    - Gaza (AAS is rare, but we all know what happens every INS game next to IDF main)
    - Hill 488 (Both main clearly visible from last flag)
    - Kashan (after capping last flags, all assets are just hugging the DOD and waiting for the kills to come everytime)
    - Khami (same as above)
    - Korengal (AAS is also rare there, but US main is also clearly visible)
    - Nuijama (FR main clearly visible from last flag)
    - Op Barracuda (CH main visible)
    - Op Marlin (both mains visible)
    - Ramiel (both mains visible)
    - Sahel (FR main clearly visible from last flag)
    - Sbeneh Outskirts (MEC main clearly visible from last flag)
    - Tad Sae Offensive (CH/NVA main clearly visible from last flag)
    - Falklans (ARG main clearly visible from last flag)
    - Ulyanovsk (Both mains clearly visible from last flag)

    The rule would look more/less like that:
    Shooting into and out of one teams' main is allowed only when that team lost all its cap-able flags.

    Obviously some maps might still be problematic (f.e. -jabal), but still less than only shooting out/as response/no shooting at all rule. Also this rule is planned to be implemented on Polish server.
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    PR:BF2 Senior Administrator Coder Member PRTA

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    Agree with all, except 4.

    MECHINF and APC
    I think, that giving IFV for MECHINF squad is pointless. MECHINF should only get to claim APCs, not IFVs. Most of the time MECHINF should fight against infantry. It already has advantage over normal APC use, as SL can lase threats, addition is a free running LAT kit.

    2 situations:
    • APC squad created first. Gets all IFVs, need to spare one APC for every created MECHINF squad;
    • MECHINF squad(s) created first . Gets the APC of squadleader choosing, APC squad claims IFVs and left APCs. (If second MECHINF squad is created after APC, first situation applies).

    4 people lone wolfing = whole squad is free kit (no leadership). And the procedure would be similar as for INF squad. It's all about enforcing appropriate rules at proper time.

    And I think my solution (I just aggregated ideas from this thread) would result in "asset whores" less likely to make MECHINF squad just to claim APC (cause only APC, no IFV).
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    PR:BF2 Resident Administrator Ten Good Men

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    I personally have no issue with base raping, atm it is obviously a rule to enforce so I do so.
    but to prevent a team being able to move around the map is a tactic which should be utilised in my opinion. Bases tend to have defensive assets set up to help defend against this sort of thing, and the DOD means that enemies trying to attack only have a few locations they can actually use to attack it.
    discuss this please.

    also, ifvs are more useful for armour than mech inf in my opinion because, as already mentioned, mech inf tends to use apcs defensively for fire support rather than as a tool to charge in offensively.
    although I would prefer them to be claimable by an apc squad as they are more likely to be used by them than an armour squad using them as back up. It also means that an apc squad is less likely to sulk when a mech inf squad gets a btr when the apc squad gets to have the bmp for example.
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    If one team lost all flags, its questionable if it will ever recover. Allowing baserape in that case would not only keep the fun for both sides(as the loosing team has some kind of defences in main mostly), but also it would make unbalanced games finish sooner and admins less busy with constant 'baserape' reports. The rule itself is much, much simplier, because you don't need to care about invisible line, where DoD starts.

    Try playing Qwai, when US side capps Temple flag.
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    PR:BF2 Resident Administrator Ten Good Men

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    I've never actually played qwai where I haven't seen the US get totally annihilated and had them pegged back so I can't comment on that unfortunately. It is probably far easier to keep the main base rule as it is because it is largely respected and followed throughout the community.
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    You just want to keep a (bad) rule because it's largely respected? We're talking about changes, that can possibly improve rules. PRTA has already some uniqe ones like armour or SL kit rule, and I'm not saying, that they're good ones, but they're uniqe, different and yet PRTA decided to introduce these.

    And recently PRTA is aiming to improve given on the feedback provided by the community, which is good. So if it turns out, that rule proposed is a mistake, they can always revert it.
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    100% agreed. Coax or .50 is enough for Mech Inf imo. And anything else could harm the team (my Nuijama example). You just gotta make sure that the rule is properly written.
    And even if the rules end up allowing more. Please do not give them IFVs! Ever! Its a waste.
    The thing is that once you can actually claim that X Mech Inf squad is free-kitting it is already too late: The APC will be in the field, most of the times. And these guys either RTB, yolo and die, or get kicked and the vehicle is left in the field. My point was making sure that this can not happen.

    I am currently working on a revamp of all vehicle icons. If that gets implemented (which I hope) you can make asset claiming rules depend on icons. .50 and coax APCs will have their own icon then [only if that gets implemented, tho].
    mectus11, Terrry and Chav like this.

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