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Feedback New Rules (yes, again)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by CAS_ual_TY, Dec 4, 2017.

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    Temur Temur Lean Mean Admin Machine

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    CAS_ual_TY It's just occurred to me that our current ruleset doesn't have any rule stating Heavy Assets can't be used during seeding (below 30 active players). Which was an oversight.

    We'll need to make sure this is included in the new one.
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    PR:BF2 Lead Administrator Events AREA 94

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    We need to clarify first how we want to handle this situation all together, or rather what the correct "handling" is.

    1st solution: Min. players needed -rule. Thoughts:
    - Requiring an "active" population doesn't work. Because a) people can not know how many enemies are active and b) they don't care about it. When requiring a 20v20 active population for a tank, players will use the tank once 40 players are on the server. Doesn't matter if 20 are afk.
    - Another thing is: What when the server is de-seeding? You can't expect players to leave their tanks on black gold when the server is de-seeding and just went below 41. They will simply leave.
    - This rule requires heavy enforcement in times when you do not have the capabilities to do that (or the least capabilities). During seeding we do not always have an admin actively watching the server. The reason why Im saying this is because the rule a) gets enforced in times with a low player number b) low player numbers mean less admin capabilities/activity, as well c) at that time (during seeding) you have 80% retards joining that require that rule
    Seeding -> Low numbers -> Low admin activity
    Seeding -> Retard alert -> Requires heavier enforcement
    Low admin activity + Requires heavier enforcement = "Profit"

    2nd solution: Do not have such a rule
    ... and do not set maps that require this rule. All problems solved. Some layers designed for low pop do have some bomb cars, but these do not really have an effect on effectiveness of the team. The main reason why most people also added these to the heavy asset list, is because they have a high respawn time, if any, and people tend to waste them on single persons, while they are supposed to go against apcs and tanks, which are, however, not available at that moment.


    Ill update the rules right now. We still need to discuss the officer rule: Public opinion tends to go heavily against it...
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    RoBOticRebel RoBOticRebel Lazy bastard

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    i dont know if anyone covered this already but i would say that if there is only 1 apc/ifv mechinf should be able to take whaever they want IF it was made first since it doesnt matter at that point whats the name of the squad
    or better not to touch that in the first place
    i can count on the fingers of one hand the ammount of times when i saw 2 apc/ifv squads stick close to eachother in around 2 years of playing pr
    and then i remember a time when on burning sands our apc squad with BMPs got rekt by warriors and my squad's bmp on its own killed all 3 enemy apcs
    it all comes down to skill and comunication and not the ammount of vehicles you have or the lack of /presense of ATGMs
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    RoBOticRebel RoBOticRebel Lazy bastard

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    my point is basically that infantry empowers the apc/ifv if that makes sense
    mech inf makes the apc/ifv stay closer to the objective where it can support the USEFUL effort and in turn can get support from infantry and not just fuck off to the desert or whatever playing with tanks
    in city warfare in a battle of 2 bradlies vs a mechinf squad with a BMP my money will laways be on the mechinf squad
    also APC squads tend to attract less skilled players due to the simplicity of its nature
    and the apc can still claim whatever they want if they make the squad first
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    RoBOticRebel RoBOticRebel Lazy bastard

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    .
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
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    RoBOticRebel RoBOticRebel Lazy bastard

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    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 11, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 11, 2017 ---
    100% agree
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    PR:BF2 Lead Administrator Events AREA 94

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    APCs dont have to stay together, that is true. But if that is the case, then you force the enemy to also stay together. Its like a tanks vs tanks situation.

    Now if I allow MECH INF to take anything, everytime, I take the independence of the APC squad. They can not operate nearly as freely as before. And I dont want that to happen, at all.

    And killing 3 warriors with a bmp is not really a herkules task. If those were 3 LAVs or 25mm, then this example would be a different one.

    So, in case I have to decide here, I will go with the rule that does not take any operational freedom off of anyone. This is also my stance towards the officer kit, right now.
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    RoBOticRebel RoBOticRebel Lazy bastard

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    1 the point was not what my mech inf squad did
    it was about what the apc squad didnt
    2 your solution will lead to apc squad talking down the mech inf
    3 you are now denying operational freedom to mech inf which on the effectiveness level is EQUIVALENT to APC squad (under the current ruleset that is)
    P.S. read the quote above again pls
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 13, 2017 ---
    in my opinion you are just trying to fix an issue that doesnt exist
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    RoBOticRebel RoBOticRebel Lazy bastard

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    also the shitboxes (apart form the mtlb and the american one) should be considered transport vehicles
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    PR:BF2 Lead Administrator Events AREA 94

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    What do you think is more abusable?
    - Clear set boundaries for both parties
    - Giving 1 party the ability to take whatever asset they want of the other party whenever they want

    If I take your proposal as rules then MECH INF will be the free kit squad of those who failed to make a squad in time and didnt get their assets. 2 guys will create the squad to get an asset anyways and wont care about what the others do.

    Last time I saw this was with the rule set you proposed on old-old PRTA. It was on Ulyanovsk, russian side. DesertFox and me got the APC squad for the BMP (IFV). Atom failed to make the squad and then created mech inf with his friend. Others joined and the only thing these guys did was sitting inside the bmp (atom had a higher claim than us then) for the entire round while the crewmen were doing stuff. 1 out of countless examples of an abused mech inf rule.

    About operational freedom. The difference here is thar the operational freedom of Apc is heavily reduced with mech inf existing but not the other way around. If mech inf doesnt have claims on x vehicles from the start then I can not take their freedom off of that. While if APC has claim on x until there is mech inf I infact take their operational freedom already.

    And please do not question my ability in seeing and solving problems. Ive been a part of almost every community and every ruleset and I know most of the severe problems that can happen when it comes to rules and enforcing them.
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    RoBOticRebel RoBOticRebel Lazy bastard

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    just as long as mechinf doesnt get reduced to normal inf with a glorified humwee for transport im ok with it
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    PR:BF2 Lead Administrator Events AREA 94

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    Depends on the map. Basically the suggested rules state that mech inf will get a useful asset when possible.
    There are barely any maps where mech inf gets nothing but there are wayyy more maps where mech inf gets an upgrade. Like an 80a on black gold instead of an mt-lb as an example
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    Pink Panther Pink Panther lord of bliss

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    Well, "first squad created gets to choose first" rule seems to take care of this problem you pointed down.
    For the moment I am still in favor of this proposal I am suggesting, unless if you find examples countering it, I would gladely like to see them.
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    RoBOticRebel RoBOticRebel Lazy bastard

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    CAS_ual_TY the situation you pointed out is stupid tho
    1: freekit squads are already forbidden
    2: for people who want to just drive APCs there are still apc squads
    3: mech inf DOES NOT take priority and if an apc squad is made first and has 4 people and there are only 2 APCs/IFVs then there can be NO mech inf
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    My goodness guys, I have explained this so much now.

    It is this simple:
    - Do not let APC give MECH INF anything aka the worst asset they dont need
    - Do not let MECH INF choose the best asset APC has

    Why?
    - Split up the good assets between them -> Enemies can simply group and rek you
    - MECH INF does NOT require heavy vehicles against armor, they need vehicles against infantry. MECH INF looses straight fight against armor, ALWAYS. Even if they only get tracked, 8 men are STUCK for atleast 10 minutes (5 min logi arrival, 5 min reps)

    Follow up
    - Making these points dependend on who makes the squad, does not solve these problems, it simply makes it more "fair"
    - You end up possibly making the operational freedom of 1 party WAY smaller, while the other one doesnt suffer

    Does my proposal solve this?
    - APC can keep their best assets
    - MECH INF gets relatively mediocre assets, when it comes to fighting armor
    - MECH INF ALWAYS gets good assets for transportation and mobility
    - MCH INF ALWAYS gets mediocre or HIGHLY effective assets (Black Gold) against infantry
    => APCs can defend the team from enemy assets grouping up
    => APCs can do the same to the enemy

    ==>> Do not make different claiming rules dependent on which squad type has been created first.

    And now the final point:
    - If you let MECH INF choose any asset, people WILL abuse it just to get an asset.

    ==>> Do not let MECH INF choose ANY asset they want.


    I do not get why this is so hard to understand.

    Now about the specific point I made.

    Lets say MECH INF can still choose any APC/IFV at any point in the game. 2 guys create it because they didnt get assets, 6 others join them. Now at one point do you see that the 2 crewmen dont care about the other guys (= free kit).
    Correct! AFTER deployment. The asset is ALREADY out of base. This hurts the team by a lot.

    Or about the example I gave with Atom. How would we have stopped that? If these other 6 guys are in the back for the entire game, they are together. From the outside we can not tell what their plans are. The guys in the back can probably not tell it either, as only the SL (crewman) probably knows it.
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    Pink Panther Pink Panther lord of bliss

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    Well how are you gonna add that to the already priority APC/IFV rule ?
    I'm fine with whatever you think is best, as long as players treat eachother equally and fair, that is what we want.
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    RoBOticRebel RoBOticRebel Lazy bastard

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    mech inf DOES NOT claim just any asset they want at any point in the game
    mech inf claims ONE at the start of the game and sticks to it (if they loose it they cant take another and have to wait for theirs to respawn)
    for your point to be valid mech inf has to take priority which it DOES NOT
    people who dont care about infantry make APC squads
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    Pink Panther Pink Panther lord of bliss

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    I have to say roboticrebel has a point. Infrantry is the root of the game. You can't win a game without atleasst 2 good inf squads no matter how much people you kill with assets. Unlesss you get 100 kills, but only virus gets them.
    That point is about asset whores, and if downgrading their ability to waist their assets and rage quit is possible, then its a good addition.
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    I your "solution" doesnt fix the issue that you are talking about it only "limits the damage"
    but i dont see why its an issue in the first place because if a squad is a freekit squad (ae SL doing whatever and inf just dicking around) an admin resigns it because freekit squads are forbidden. end of story
    if that is still an issue you can just make it a rule that mech inf squad leader cant man the vehicle
    which just again forbids the situation which you are describing
    II about the "group up and rek you" how many times is that actually valid on the maps we play?
    1 fallujah: no apc opposition so spreading the assets is actually beneficial
    2 any A-symetryc warfare always has one team with superior assets and the main threat to them is infantry so having infantry supporting
    those assets is again beneficial. and the other team is usually doomed asset wise if it has any
    3 sareema: very difficult to group up assets where they can both be useful due to narrow roads and a lot of forestation and where there is a
    position for it, going there is risky due to CAS, and if you are grouped up in one part of the map getting to the other will take a while due to
    you having to use roads which gives the enemy time to manuever
    also the APCs are very valnurable to being shot in the side by AT since its very easy to sneek up on one if there is no infantry around it
    4 burning sands: either the brits are doomed asset vise no matter if there is a mech inf on mec team or there is armor and what APCs/IFVs
    are up to doesnt matter
    in fact i would argue that its safer in the city with mech inf than it is with APC outside of it
    III when a mech inf squad gets created before APC mech inf claims one asset and if they loose it they have to wait for it to respawn
    when APC gets created first they claim their assets and if there are 6 people in APC before mech inf has enough people to man their asset and
    there are 3 APCs/IFVs then THERE CAN BE NO mech inf due to the fact that there arent enough assets to make their squad valid
    if there are 4 people in APC then they claim 2 vehicles and leave the rest to mech inf which CAN NOT take anything other than their vehicle
    and if they loose it they have to wait for it to respawn
    IV the IFVs such as the bmp3 arent just the best at killing apcs they are the best at killing anything and thats why you want them in your mech
    inf squad
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
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    5.1.3 ???

    APC/Mech Inf claiming priority is mongy as fuck and bound to cause issues. Just make it so that you can only have one mech inf squad and they claim a single APC, not difficult.

    Why even acknowledge "recon" squads as a thing?

    Mortars must be locked with 4 people? wtf lmao

    No point giving "recon" vehicles to APC when they generally have a good amount of toys anyway, just make them unclaimable.

    Adjust AAV claims so both Tank and CAS have equal claim to them; if you're going to give priority to either squad it makes more sense to give them to CAS anyway, as more slots in a squad are typically used by tank crewmen than by jet pilots.
    cassius23 likes this.

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