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Being ruthless or ?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by tobi-the-fraggel, Jul 18, 2016.

  1. tobi-the-fraggel tobi-the-fraggel 'Princess Negativity'

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    Not sure how many of you know the Lindybeige yt channel. He recently uploaded a very interesting video about a common 'issue' in modern armies. Do soldiers shoot to kill when they are firing their weapons?

    Some might remember this scene from 'man who stare at goats' were there is a platoon in Vietnam shooting at a vc but all of them seem to aim to high. In that movie it is a certainly funny remark about the efficiency of drafted soldiers but, quite like the film implies, there actually have been studies around how often this happens, why it happens and what can be done to make soldiers more effective on the battlefield. Lindy made quite a good video about it and I think it's worth showing it here as well.

    Enjoy the theory behind and about how to make people kill people (I wonder if US police gets such a training #tooEarlyForThis)

  2. Arnoldio Arnoldio Noot noot!

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    But it is not a problem in modern armies anymore, as he says. Only up to WW2.
  3. Foxtrot

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    He only talked about a couple of armies, we didn't shoot at any human looking targets for example.
  4. Wicca Wicca Project Founder

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    Propaganda/Information warfare is part of warfare, the process of dehumanizing your opponents.
  5. tobi-the-fraggel tobi-the-fraggel 'Princess Negativity'

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    Yes. Ukraine and Syria wars are perfect examples in recent history. Interestingly in Ukraine each site uses almost equal colors to describe the enemy. Both assume the other as being fascistic, ruled by foreign interests AND both consider the oppenent as being too dump to realize being abused by their governemnts...so ironic...

    Exactly. He only talked about a few armies. To be fair, he can't talk about that many armies of the western world as there simply isn't enough data about other armies I presume. Despite US, Britain, French and Israel, what other army in the western world participated in war on a larger scale? We cannot expect getting data about the efficiency of special forces and special forces are what most other NATO countries sent into the war on terror. (logistic and emergency medical responds troops don't really matter in this regards).
    So, we don't really know statistics about 'shoot-to-kill' when it comes to german, danish or spanish forces. Just as an example..

    Also, I highly disagree with this 'not a problem' statement from Arnoldio. I mean, what do you consider a problem in this case? Is it not a problem because the troops are so good in killing their opponents or is it a problem that they are so good with it?
    I mean, we are having ethical discussions about the dangers of stem cell studies and about gen-food. Surprisingly there is no discussion about turning humans into 'killing machines'. As Lindy said in the video, it is part of human nature not to kill someone who isn't a direct threat to you. Changing this behaviour also means changing what defines us as human beings. I now remember this scene from the documentary about a danish platoon in afghanistan. It's called 'Camp Armadillo'. There comes a moment where a little group of soldiers encounter a bunch of insurgents very close to them in a ditch in a field and they attack these afghanis with a few grenades and then emptying a few magazines into the assumed position of those. The interesting part then comes when two danish soldiers move up to the ditch and continue shooting the wounded talibs. They literally cut them to pieces by emptying a few more magazines in each and single one of them. For a civilian behind a PC in central Europe this is a quite confusing and disturbing scene.
    Now I don't want to say these soldiers acted completely wrong in this situation. There were understandable reasons for acting like this in that specific situation. I also don't want to say there were no other options for them. Actually I don't want to judge what happened there. I just want to point out what we do to young people by training them into soldiers who kill before thinking. From a military standpoint it ofc makes sense to train them like this. However, is it right to do so? What happens with those soldiers when the leave the military? What happens to a society if there young men are trained to kill? Are there better ways of training? How can such a training be reversed?

    I mean, yes, like said, it makes sense training an army to be more efficient in killing the enemy but has there ever been a discussion about the negative consequences this could have?

    Also, if 2 armies collide both having a 95% shoot-to-kill ratio. Will this make a war between them shorter in time or will it reduce the impact on civilians? Won't it only increase the overall death count compared to a war between armies having a lesser but equeal ratio? I mean, does it actually help with anything or does it only make things even worse then they already are?
  6. Foxtrot

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    Yeah my point was that you shouldn't use the US army or Nato forces in the middle east as an international standard, most armies purpose is to defend their home countries, not to kill terrorists. As you said there's no way to get accurate statitics but I'm pretty sure that most soldiers are trained to know what they are doing rather than killing people.

    I do think that it will lead to serious problems in a post-war scenario if every soldier are trained into killing machines. For example, in a drunken fist fight, would they understand that killing is not necessary? Would they even see strangers as real persons or just as potential threats?
  7. FluffyThumper FluffyThumper Russian Bias

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    PTSD and drinking never ended well for anybody.
    tobi-the-fraggel likes this.
  8. Foxtrot

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    It was an example of a threatening situation, in your case, a slap duel between you and a 5 year old girl would be more appropriate
  9. FluffyThumper FluffyThumper Russian Bias

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    PTSD could kick in full force when somebody calls you an asshole, what do you think would happen if he lounged at you with his fists afterwards?
  10. Foxtrot

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    Excactly my point.
  11. tobi-the-fraggel tobi-the-fraggel 'Princess Negativity'

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    That's the question!
    It doesn't even need to get to a point where someone is killing someone. It could also be possible to just have a bigger affinity to violence.
    Does it affect how one raises children? Does it affect how one treats other humans? Does it affect how they think about themselves or in other words what about confidence and self-esteem? Does it affect one rates life in general? What do we even know about the consequences of such training?
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    fascinating stuff, ty-


    You know what Im thinking about concerning this?
    What if Polish and Russiand and French soldiers weren't necessarily worse in direct engagements but simply not motivated enough to fight? At least in the start?

    Maybe it had something to do with it.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2016

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